Re: Soviet Aircraft Types in Korea

["Les Hanson" <hanson@totalnetnh.net>]

www.acepilots.com/korea_aces.html
les
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diego Zampini" <dzampini@hotmail.com>
To: <KOREAN-WAR-L@raven.cc.ku.edu>
Cc: <DanFahey@DanSources.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Soviet Aircraft Types in Korea


> Hi, Dan.
>
> >BTW I was born in 1951 May13th.
>
> I am a ´little bit´ younger. I was born on April 5 1971.
>
> >The books I have read all indicate battles
> >engagning several hundred Migs. Something
> >on the order from 2 to 1 to 10 to 1 odds.
>
> I guess that I had read the same figures. Those sources mentioned 200 MiGs
> versus 70 F-86s in April 1951, and 540 MiG-15s against 89 Sabres in
October
> 1951. However, such figures were at that time provided by the US
> intelligence, which inflated the numbers or included all the MiGs in the
> inventory of China as operating in Manchuria airbases. Taking into acount
> the info provided by the Russians, in April 1951 the only Communist active
> units were the 176 Guards Regiment and the 196 Regiment, with an average
> mount of 36 MiG-15s per regiment. So, the actual figure was not 200, but
> only 72 MiG-15s vs 70 F-86s that month. In October 1951, with five
regiments
> (17, 18 Guards, 176 Guards, 196 and 523) we have not 540 MiGs, but only
180
> MiG-15s vs 89 Sabres at most. It was usual that the battle reports
inflated
> the number of MiGs involved in an aerial battle: on April 12 1951, during
> the battle where the Russian MiG-15s shot down 3 B-29s and shot-up 7 more
> out of 48 Superfortresses, USAF claimed that the escort of 18 F-86s and 34
> F-84s was out-numbered by 75 MiGs, when actually only 35 MiG-15s engaged
the
> 48 bombers and 52 escorting fighters. On October 23 1951 the 89 fighters
(34
> F-86s and 55 F-84s) escorting 21 B-29s asserted that they were engaged by
> 150 MiGs, but the figure provided by Georgii Lobov is quite inferior: only
> 44 MiG-15s engaged the 110 US aircraft.
>
> >During the Honcho era, from the accounts on both sides,
> >it appears to be a 1:1 air kill ratio.
>
> It depends of the month; in June 1951 was 1:1 in the duel MiG-15 vs F-86
> (the Sabres shot down 6 MiGs but they also loose 6 of their own), but 2:1
in
> favour of the MiG pilots accounting other types of planes (they shot down
2
> F-80s, 2 F-51s and 1 B-29 too). In October 1951 the duel MiG-Sabre was
> slightly in favour of US F-86 pilots, with 8 MiGs downed against 6 Sabres
> lost, but the overall figure was 2.5:1 in favour of the Russians, because
> the MiG-15 pilots also shot down 13 B-29s, 4 F-84s and 2 RF-80s. In
general
> terms, during 1951 there was a 1.3:1 kill ratio in favour of the Russian
> MiG-15 pilots against all the UN aircraft types, but also a 1.8:1 kill
ratio
> in favour the USAF pilots in the duel Sabre versus MiG.
> If you want to know more about it, read 2 articles of mine:
> "Red October" http://dzampini.boom.ru/Korea/red_october.htm
> "The Honchos Have Come" http://dzampini.boom.ru/Korea/Honchos.htm
> Of course, probably I made mistakes, but I consider them an objective
> overview. My sources are mentioned at the bottom of the articles.
>
> >What is your take on this data?
>
> My sources are the excellent work done by Cookie about the Soviet
deployment
> in Korea (please, go to www.korean-war.com, look for the section devoted
to
> the Soviet Union, and choose ´USSR Order of Battle´), and more recently
the
> book ´Red Devils over the 38 Parallel´ written by Igor Seidov and Col(Ret)
> Askold German (even when I am careful regarding the claims of air
victories
> mentioned in the book).
>
> >Based on top speed the F84 should
> >have done better.
>
> Hmmm&#8230; I think that is more than only top speed the core of the
matter.
> The MiG-15 had a higher ceiling, so they could give the first hit
attacking
> from above, addittionally, the MiG out-climbed and out-dived the F-84, so
> easily could the MiGs disengage either climbing (the strong point of the
> MiG) or diving (of course, such maneuver was forbidden in a combat with a
> Sabre, the F-86 dived much more better than the MiG). And at almost any
> altitude the MiG-15 had a tighter turn radius than the Thunderjet.
> Regards,
> Diego.
>
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