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RE: Col Toon.
Thanks.. I thought that was what happened.
Being sensitive to avoid a world political crisis is a rational reason.
Though I think it is FOS...
It seems every conflict I have read mercenary pilots were hired or
clandestine associations were negotiated. I believe that the USA had
piolots fying witht he Israeli's during its battles. They surely wre
providint them with Aircraft and better understand the dual citizenship
arrangement the USA and Israel have.
[mailto:owner-KOREAN-WAR-L@raven.cc.ku.edu]On Behalf Of Mike Yared
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: Col Toon.
two email copied:
*From: "Sherwood.John" <Sherwood.John@nhc.navy.mil>
Subject: REPLY: North Vietnamese Fighter Aces
Date Written: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:20:30 -0400
Date Posted: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:22:43 -0500
This is an unclassified list compiled by Rob Young of the National Air
Intel Center History Office:
Nguyen Van Coc 9
Luu Huy Chao 8
Mai Van Cuong 8
Pham Thanh Ngan 8
Nguyen Hong Nhi 8
Nguyen Van Bay 7
Vu Ngoc Dinh 6
Nguyen Ngoc Do 6
Dang Ngoc Ngu 6
Nguyen Duc Soat 6
I have another more definitive list compiled by Istvan Toperczer, a
Hungarian Air Force officer and the author of the _Air war over North
Vietnam: the Vietnamese People's Air Force: 1949-1975_. However, I need to
consult with him before posting that list on H-War. Both Toperczer and
Young vehemently deny the existance of Toon and have hard evidence to back
up their claims. Anyone interested in this subject should consult
Toperczer's book. I met with Toperczer two weeks ago in Budapest and
learned that he is working on a more detailed follow-on work to be published
in the near future. He also informed me that Osprey plans to reprint his
first book. He's a very skilled researcher who has interviewed many of the
top Vietnamese officers, and in my opinion has compiled the definitive
statistics on this issue.
John Darrell Sherwood, Ph.D.
Naval Historical Center (CH)
805 Kidder Breese St., SE
Washington Navy Yard
Washington, DC 20374-5060
*From: "Robert S. Hopkins, III" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: REPLY: Foreigners in North Vietnam
Author's Subject: REPLY: Foreigners in North Vietnam
Date Written: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:35:00 -0600
Date Posted: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:15:00 -0600
The question of foreign pilots flying MiGs for the Vietnamese Peoples' Air
Force (VPAF) is still a mystery. On 10 May 1972, U.S. Navy pilot and RSO
Randy Cunningham and Willie Driscoll downed three MiG-17s, making them the
war's first aces (they had two previous "kills"). The final victory was over
what "Duke" Cunningham told me was one of the
best pilots against whom he had ever flown. The pilot of this final "kill"
was reportedly a "Colonel Tomb" (also "Toon"), the VPAF leading ace with 13
"kills." When Cunningham, first in his capacity as an instructor at VF-126
(one of the U.S. Navy Adversary units) and later as a member of the U.S.
House of Representatives, tried to get copies of audio tapes made of the
radio transmissions between the pilot of the last MiG he and Driscoll shot
down and the Vietnamese ground controllers, Cunningham was (and still has
been) denied access to them as "too sensitive, and he lacked a 'need to
know'." In my own research on this issue (published in the late _Journal of
Military Aviation_, I address the *possibility* that the pilot was not
Vietnamese and was perhaps Russian. If so, this would have been especially
sensitive, considering it meant that U.S. and Soviet pilots were in direct
combat with one another, regardless of the nationality of the airplane. This
is not unheard of, as Soviet pilots are now known to have flown in DRK
MiG-15s during the Korean War. Jack Broughton, a retired F-105 pilot,
relates in his book _Thud Ridge_ that on one occasion he saw a VPAF MiG-19
so close that he could visually discriminate the pilot, who, he said, had
the blondest hair and the bluest eyes, suggesting someone other than an
Asian. At least one source with whom I spoke suggested that the mysterious
Colonel Tomb was a special radio identification given by U.S. Electronic
Security Command eavesdroppers (who monitored VPAF air-to-ground and
ground-to-air radio transmissions) to *any* non-Vietnamese pilot who was
airborne. We know that the Soviets did send instructors to teach the VPAF
pilots, especially when they acquired later variants of the MiG-21. It is
not inconceivable that one or more of these instructors found themselves in
combat. [A similar situation occurred over Egypt when Israeli F-4s and
Mirage IIIs shot down five Egyptian MiG-21s piloted by Soviet instructors.]
Perhaps other members of this discussion group can shed further light on
foreign pilots flying with the VPAF.
Robert S. Hopkins, III, Ph.D.
(he is at http://www.shemya.net/KC-135.html)
>From: Love Shack <Home@DanSources.com>
>Subject: Col Toon.
>Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:41:50 -0800
>I have seen several articles about Col Toon and his battle with Duke
>However I never see his name in the NV register as one of their pilots.
>Nuygen Van Coc yes.. Col Toon ..NONE.
>Do you have any information?
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