RE: MiG pilots got worse

["Daniel T. Fahey" <DanFahey@DanSources.com>]

Hi Ron, Diego and Cookie:
Your welcome on the COIN Aircraft and French in IndoChina. It added to the
T6 use in combat.  I do not think the Vietnamese had any combat aircraft to
counter the French.

But I full understand how the Vietnam Conflict, Police Action, sometimes
called a war started and the disgrace of US policies of the time.

Back to the Korean War...I noticed the Russians used camouflage as did the
Germans, Italians in WW2.  The Russians must have deployed these same
tactics and caused a lot of losses to the US in Korea and Germans at the
Eastern front.

This was the saem tactic used against us in Vietnam.  Seems we were not
learning any lessons.

In Bob Hoovers book, he went to Korea to show how to dive bomb and hit
targets with the Saber. I get the feeling there was a lot left on the table
employing tactics on the US side.

Another reason the Japanese were ravaged soo much in the Marianas was that
their tactics were preditable.  Sometimes you could not help it, considering
everone knew where you were going to fly from.  But there was not the CYA
tactics the Russians employed.

>From my readings of the Nomanhan Conflict the Mongolia in 1938 to 1940 the
Russians employed some of the same tactics. The German ace Adolf Galland
group described the same thing.

It would be interesting to view US tactics.  The US was more sucessful over
all but had to rely more on maneuverability and their gun sites to succeed.
Where as the Russians used surpriseand distraction to a high level.

Dan




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-KOREAN-WAR-L@raven.cc.ku.edu
[mailto:owner-KOREAN-WAR-L@raven.cc.ku.edu]On Behalf Of Donald McElfresh
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 12:40 AM
To: KOREAN-WAR-L@raven.cc.ku.edu
Subject: Re: MiG pilots got worse


Diego:

You were okay until you brought in WWII.  Patton was held back to let the
Russians take Berlin. It was political...they had a score to even.

Don

Diego Zampini wrote:

> Hi, Cookie, Dan and Ron:
> Regarding the actual Communist MiG losses in air combat in June 1953, a
> Cuban friend of mine told me that the were 33; 22 Soviet MiGs and 11
Chinese
> ones. In that same period the Russians claimed 40 Sabres destroyed and the
> Chinese 15 more.
> My guess is: at least 10-12 Sabres credited to "flame out/engine
> falure/AAA/battle damage" were actually shot down by Soviet MiG-15 pilots.
> And the Russians are Chinese are reliable in their figures of losses (the
> claims is a different matter) so evidently USAF overclaimed in a high 60%
> rate in June 1953, because only 33 out of 77 claims actually happened. I
> think that the Sabre pilots overclaimed in good faith, but the guncamera
> analysts became much more trigger-happy in credit kills which were not
> properly confirmed. The need for showing to the US public oppinion that
the
> Red MiG were not a menace for US planes was too high at that time.
> Many would say that in many cases of F-86Fs credited to AAA or flame outs
in
> that month, their buddies did not see any MiG in the area. But I guess
that
> it had an explanation: the "uppercut" tactic. I read n one of my books
that
> the MiG-15bis waited for the fighter-bombers F-86Fs at low altitude using
> their camouflages (you can see drawings of the MiGs at that time, like the
> MiG-15bis "325" used by N.M.Sokurenko, the "16" used by Semen A. Fedorets
or
> the "502" used by Nikolai I. Ivanov, and you will nottice its 3-colors
paint
> schemes of green, sand and brown) to mix with the terrain, and when the
> Sabres began its bomb runs, the un-noticed MiG-15s climbed suddenly (the
> strong point of the MiG) and blasted the F-86Fs out of the sky without
being
> notticed by their victims or their buddies.
> Taking all that into account, it is clear to me that the actual US
> kill-to-losses ratio was not the crushing and propagandistic 77:0, but a
> much more reliable 33:12, or in simple words, a meek 3:1 kill ratio.
> I hope this figure helps you, Cookie and Dan.
> And Ron... evem admitting a 3:1 kill ratio, June 1953 was not a "Marianas
> Turkey-Shoot" as you asserted. So, stop understimating the Russians!!! The
> Nazis did it in 1941, but the destroyed capital was not Moskow in 1942 but
> Berlin in 1945. Remember that.
> Diego.
>
> PS: Dan, muy interesantes los datos de los aviones COIN usados por Francia
> en Indochina. Gracias.
>
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