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Restate?
1) We won battles in Korea we did not win the war..
The war was not about the Ideology of communism but
over control over a Land Mass...
and a Civial War about who was going to
rule
This peninsula was fought over all the way back to
the 1890's between Japan and Russia and later China
In fact even before that but not familiar
withe the who and what.
2) Marines founded in 1775..so what!
3) We had several limited wars well before
Korea..such as .. Columbia over Panama, el Salvadore, Nicaragua,
Phillipines
4) Do not know what country you lived in .. but the
Colleges were filled with students, and homes were being built like
crazy.
AND massive city planning for roads,
interstates and transportation systems. The US was converting over to
a Commercial Economy.
In fact produced the largest increase
in middle class. Depicted in the early Hot Rods and Teen movies of
your era.
5) Actually the Defense Industry kills Commercial
growth as its Economic Impact is short term.
We are experiencing the same thing today because
our Leaders are not investing in America and Infrastructure.
AND one of the prime reasons US Manufacturing is
dying and loosing our middle class.
We are not finding way of keeping jobs in the US or
reinvesting in our infrastructure.
When we invest in our country the individuals
personal costs to obtain and able to develop personal
investment.
Our Tax Laws benefit companies to develop off shore
tax havens instead of forcing those same companies in invest
in OUR country. When that happens then there
will be a renewed interest...and maybe money in our pockets.
6) Which CONSERVATIVES and what kind of
Conservative were they to support Civil Rights...?
Dan Fahey
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 2:18
PM
Subject: Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period
for list]
Let me re-state my former response in terms you may be able to
grasp. I did, and do, dispute your purported facts because they are in
error.
1. The fact is we defeated the enemy in Korea, restored the
situation ante-bellum, in spite of the politicians and bureaucrats being
manipulated at Panmunjon. We kicked ass after the initial stages, and were on
the threshold of decisive victory in 1951 when the Russians, to save the
Commies butts, clamored for peace talks.
2. The Marines were founded in
1775.
3. The US was not engaged in a limited political war in Europe, and
Korea WAS the first limited war.
4. When I first enlisted in the Service in
1949 the country was in a recession/depression, the impact of millions of WW2
Vet's returning to a limited job market with the downsizing of the defense
industry, and the drain on the National Economy because of the financial
support for a recovering Europe .
5. It was the Korean War and the
re-vitalization of the defense industry, along with the increase neccessary
for logistical support that created the economic growth.
6. It was the
Conservatives, not the Liberals, that supported legislation for Civil
Rights.
I hope this time my points are more clear, and might even
register. :-)
Love Shack
wrote:
Iam not
stupid..and not a Bigot...
AND you are right you cannot shed any light
on my stupidiy..
That you share with yourself....and you ad hominum
attacks..
Yet you do not disputed the facts I have presented. Too bad...but
that is you.
You are not being accountable or responsible for your
statements.
In fact your comments are childish.
I will stick with ed, swan, marc, cookie, sandy and others information
who have
taken an lot of their time to dig out details. Despite my
dickering with them
I listen and read what they have to say, and have a
lot of respect for thier opinion.
Go away Robert..until you are mature enough to converse with this group.
Dan Fahey
Robert wrote:
I can shed no light on your stupidity..........you
do that well enough yourself. You aren't finding out a damn thing about
what really happened in Korea. It's obvious you are ineducable.
Love Shack wrote:
Then
you are a victim of your times and your assumptions and
can see you
are having a hard time not remaining Ignorant..
Today we are really finding out what really happened in Korea.
AND that we were not the almighty ass kickers that we were lead to
believe.
There was an earlier discussion on this NG about the Marines.
The
discussion was about the them being cut out of the budget,
as not
necessary in 1947... The same thing with the Coast Guard.
There was
a big fight to invent the USAF....and discussions on what to do with
NACA..to its eventual reformation as NASA.
Congress was not the modivating organization trying to cut down the
military.
But it was their fiscal responsibility to spend the Tax
Revenues where
it helped the country....then there were the growing
racial issues the conservatives
did not want to surface..
Since you are not aware of the business climate.. there was a lot of
asset stripping going on.
Curtis Wright was the second largest
company in America at the time..
The stock holders tore the company
off selling off everything.
GM OTOH .. went into commercial
production.
CW had a lock on engines and could have made a sucessful
commercial airplane builder..BUT no..it was about the money.
AND
the Beginining of a consolidation of the Military Industrial Complex...
It was about money and power and one of the reasons why I feel
the intentions taken in Korea were betrayed by the internal
arguments of the time.
There was no more need to build 100000 aircraft or more Battleships
or Carriers.
We were selling our military surplus at 10 cents on the
dollar.
Just about half of everything we built was broken up in to
scrap.
The country was trying to convert to a commercial economy.
Then
again the CONSERVATIVEs Bankers would not lend money to
anyone
without the Government stepping in and protecting the banks.
I know
all too well what happened in that era.
God help you if you were a Black and wanted to buy a Caddilac
1957 to 1953 was one of the best commercial growth periods in US
History.
It was the advent of the Rural Towms becoming todays
metropolis suburbs.
OK.. your turn
DF
Robert wrote:
Your lack of knowledge is palpable.........and
your assumptions ignorant. The Democrats were in power, they were and
are liberal and down size the Military when ever they are in power,
and the Marine Corps was founded in 1775. I won't address the rest of
your diatribes and rant, because I am certain you were not alive
during the period being discussed, and are only a victim of the
current educational system. I lived through those times, and fought in
the Korean War, so I cannot condem you for your ignorance, only pity
you.
Robert
Love Shack wrote:
OH.. so this is really about LIBERAL
Democrats....HUH..NOT a battle among the Military Elites..BUT
LIBERAL Democrats...which were not a whole lot in those
days....Strom Thurmon was Democrat.... I guess the Political Limited War in Europe
did not count. The
Decision to Eliminate the Marines was a battle between the Military
Elitesand where defense resources were going.A long simmering battle
among jealous and power seeking people I believe the DoD, USAF, Marines and CIA
were all designed and formedaround that period. THIS was not
caused by LIBERAL Democrats That is your prejudice... DF
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Friday, December 20, 2002 6:16 PM
Subject:
Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period for list] You err in
your conclusions about Korea...........Korea was the first
Political Limited War, with the primary mission being to repel the
NKPR from the south. America was indeed unprepared, because the
Liberal Democrats had cut the Military to the bone, even
contemplating the ellimination of the Marine Corps. But if you
think the lack of preparedness infected all the US Armed Forces,
study the battles of the understrength Marine Brigade that landed
at Pusan in August of 1950. Thier performance there, and the
landing at Inchon assured that the Marine Corps would remain the
nations force in readiness.
Robert
Love Shack wrote:
I get the feeling the books on MacArthur are gentle on his decisions.
The Dutch during WW2 were in the Pacific area as well.
They seemed better prepared to fight the Japanese then the Americans.
The air combat records show this and that the Dutch fought with Distinction
Reading about their Air Combat leads me to believe that the Americans
ignored provacations by the Japanese.
We were caught on the Ground in the Phillipines.
There was no LOGICAL rotation of aircraft or preparation for an attack.
The one time we were in the air against the Japanese wiped us out
on one large air battle. That is just BAD planning for a Professional
Soldier.
Your opinion to Sandy seems to defend Mac's lack of Readiness.
IMO... he did the same thing in Korea...
YEah, he did some things right
BUT he does not have the combat instincts that were comparable to a Patton
or Rommel.
Again we were caught in Korea.....BLINDLY unprepared....
and held to a draw.
Diego earlier discloses that we got our BUTTs kicked in the Air War as well.
All the early books on Korea are crap. I am confused as to what really when
on.
IMO MacArthur made the same structural mistakes he did in WW2
that put us behind the 8-Ball....
Regarding my Vietnam comment .. we made the same structural logic
that got us caught in that war as well.
This is what I am getting out of the new Information on WW2 and Korea.
I side with those that write about what happened that fits the RESULTS.
Thereby adding up what the original Intentions were.
What you REALLY intended is your RESULTS
DF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc James Small" <msmall@infi.net>
To: <KOREAN-WAR-L@raven.cc.ku.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period for list]
At 11:38 AM 12/20/02 -0500, Love Shack wrote:
IMHO it sounds like MAC Ghost is with us AGAIN... Sandy : be all
to filled with Bluster. It was strange how the Dutch managed to battle the
Japanese and the USARMY AF Yeah they finally got wiped out but they made
a good accounting of what they had for resources. MAC and the Phillipines
have far more aricraft and resources to defend with. Yet history
FORGIVES MacArthur.. IMO this attitude also prevailed in Vietnam.. You
added up a lot about how we got hit, suposedly by surprise, by the Chinese
Making the Korean war a real "pit" of a fight. Something that could have
been avoided or stopped quickly with some common sense. Then you can
take the MacArthur story, going back further to Anacostia where he wiped
out the WW1 Protesters.
Uh, could you put the above into an intelligible form? When you do, I
shall respond!
Marc
msmall@infi.net FAX: +276/343-7315
Cha robh bąs fir gun ghrąs fir!
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