Restate?1) We won battles in Korea we did not win the war..The war was not about the Ideology of communism but over control over a Land Mass...and a Civial War about who was going to ruleThis peninsula was fought over all the way back to the 1890's between Japan and Russia and later ChinaIn fact even before that but not familiar withe the who and what.2) Marines founded in 1775..so what!3) We had several limited wars well before Korea..such as .. Columbia over Panama, el Salvadore, Nicaragua, Phillipines4) Do not know what country you lived in .. but the Colleges were filled with students, and homes were being built like crazy.AND massive city planning for roads, interstates and transportation systems. The US was converting over to a Commercial Economy.In fact produced the largest increase in middle class. Depicted in the early Hot Rods and Teen movies of your era.5) Actually the Defense Industry kills Commercial growth as its Economic Impact is short term.We are experiencing the same thing today because our Leaders are not investing in America and Infrastructure.AND one of the prime reasons US Manufacturing is dying and loosing our middle class.We are not finding way of keeping jobs in the US or reinvesting in our infrastructure.When we invest in our country the individuals personal costs to obtain and able to develop personal investment.Our Tax Laws benefit companies to develop off shore tax havens instead of forcing those same companies in investin OUR country. When that happens then there will be a renewed interest...and maybe money in our pockets.6) Which CONSERVATIVES and what kind of Conservative were they to support Civil Rights...?Dan Fahey----- Original Message -----From: RobertSent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 2:18 PMSubject: Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period for list]Let me re-state my former response in terms you may be able to grasp. I did, and do, dispute your purported facts because they are in error.
1. The fact is we defeated the enemy in Korea, restored the situation ante-bellum, in spite of the politicians and bureaucrats being manipulated at Panmunjon. We kicked ass after the initial stages, and were on the threshold of decisive victory in 1951 when the Russians, to save the Commies butts, clamored for peace talks.
2. The Marines were founded in 1775.
3. The US was not engaged in a limited political war in Europe, and Korea WAS the first limited war.
4. When I first enlisted in the Service in 1949 the country was in a recession/depression, the impact of millions of WW2 Vet's returning to a limited job market with the downsizing of the defense industry, and the drain on the National Economy because of the financial support for a recovering Europe .
5. It was the Korean War and the re-vitalization of the defense industry, along with the increase neccessary for logistical support that created the economic growth.
6. It was the Conservatives, not the Liberals, that supported legislation for Civil Rights.
I hope this time my points are more clear, and might even register. :-)
Love Shack wrote:
Iam not stupid..and not a Bigot...
AND you are right you cannot shed any light on my stupidiy..
That you share with yourself....and you ad hominum attacks..
Yet you do not disputed the facts I have presented. Too bad...but that is you.
You are not being accountable or responsible for your statements.
In fact your comments are childish.
I will stick with ed, swan, marc, cookie, sandy and others information who have
taken an lot of their time to dig out details. Despite my dickering with them
I listen and read what they have to say, and have a lot of respect for thier opinion.
Go away Robert..until you are mature enough to converse with this group.
Robert wrote:I can shed no light on your stupidity..........you do that well enough yourself. You aren't finding out a damn thing about what really happened in Korea. It's obvious you are ineducable.
Love Shack wrote:Then you are a victim of your times and your assumptions and
can see you are having a hard time not remaining Ignorant..
Today we are really finding out what really happened in Korea.
AND that we were not the almighty ass kickers that we were lead to believe.
There was an earlier discussion on this NG about the Marines.
The discussion was about the them being cut out of the budget,
as not necessary in 1947... The same thing with the Coast Guard.
There was a big fight to invent the USAF....and discussions on what to do with
NACA..to its eventual reformation as NASA.
Congress was not the modivating organization trying to cut down the military.
But it was their fiscal responsibility to spend the Tax Revenues where
it helped the country....then there were the growing racial issues the conservatives
did not want to surface..
Since you are not aware of the business climate.. there was a lot of asset stripping going on.
Curtis Wright was the second largest company in America at the time..
The stock holders tore the company off selling off everything.
GM OTOH .. went into commercial production.
CW had a lock on engines and could have made a sucessful
commercial airplane builder..BUT no..it was about the money.
AND the Beginining of a consolidation of the Military Industrial Complex...
It was about money and power and one of the reasons why I feel
the intentions taken in Korea were betrayed by the internal arguments of the time.
There was no more need to build 100000 aircraft or more Battleships or Carriers.
We were selling our military surplus at 10 cents on the dollar.
Just about half of everything we built was broken up in to scrap.
The country was trying to convert to a commercial economy.
Then again the CONSERVATIVEs Bankers would not lend money to
anyone without the Government stepping in and protecting the banks.
I know all too well what happened in that era.
God help you if you were a Black and wanted to buy a Caddilac
1957 to 1953 was one of the best commercial growth periods in US History.
It was the advent of the Rural Towms becoming todays metropolis suburbs.
OK.. your turn
Robert wrote:Your lack of knowledge is palpable.........and your assumptions ignorant. The Democrats were in power, they were and are liberal and down size the Military when ever they are in power, and the Marine Corps was founded in 1775. I won't address the rest of your diatribes and rant, because I am certain you were not alive during the period being discussed, and are only a victim of the current educational system. I lived through those times, and fought in the Korean War, so I cannot condem you for your ignorance, only pity you.
Love Shack wrote:OH.. so this is really about LIBERAL Democrats....HUH..NOT a battle among the Military Elites..BUT LIBERAL Democrats...which were not a whole lot in those days....Strom Thurmon was Democrat.... I guess the Political Limited War in Europe did not count. The Decision to Eliminate the Marines was a battle between the Military Elitesand where defense resources were going.A long simmering battle among jealous and power seeking people I believe the DoD, USAF, Marines and CIA were all designed and formedaround that period. THIS was not caused by LIBERAL Democrats That is your prejudice... DF----- Original Message -----From: RobertSent: Friday, December 20, 2002 6:16 PMSubject: Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period for list]You err in your conclusions about Korea...........Korea was the first Political Limited War, with the primary mission being to repel the NKPR from the south. America was indeed unprepared, because the Liberal Democrats had cut the Military to the bone, even contemplating the ellimination of the Marine Corps. But if you think the lack of preparedness infected all the US Armed Forces, study the battles of the understrength Marine Brigade that landed at Pusan in August of 1950. Thier performance there, and the landing at Inchon assured that the Marine Corps would remain the nations force in readiness.
Love Shack wrote:I get the feeling the books on MacArthur are gentle on his decisions. The Dutch during WW2 were in the Pacific area as well. They seemed better prepared to fight the Japanese then the Americans. The air combat records show this and that the Dutch fought with Distinction Reading about their Air Combat leads me to believe that the Americans ignored provacations by the Japanese. We were caught on the Ground in the Phillipines. There was no LOGICAL rotation of aircraft or preparation for an attack. The one time we were in the air against the Japanese wiped us out on one large air battle. That is just BAD planning for a Professional Soldier. Your opinion to Sandy seems to defend Mac's lack of Readiness. IMO... he did the same thing in Korea... YEah, he did some things right BUT he does not have the combat instincts that were comparable to a Patton or Rommel. Again we were caught in Korea.....BLINDLY unprepared.... and held to a draw. Diego earlier discloses that we got our BUTTs kicked in the Air War as well. All the early books on Korea are crap. I am confused as to what really when on. IMO MacArthur made the same structural mistakes he did in WW2 that put us behind the 8-Ball.... Regarding my Vietnam comment .. we made the same structural logic that got us caught in that war as well. This is what I am getting out of the new Information on WW2 and Korea. I side with those that write about what happened that fits the RESULTS. Thereby adding up what the original Intentions were. What you REALLY intended is your RESULTS DF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc James Small" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: <KOREAN-WAR-L@raven.cc.ku.edu> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:41 PM Subject: Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period for list] At 11:38 AM 12/20/02 -0500, Love Shack wrote:IMHO it sounds like MAC Ghost is with us AGAIN... Sandy : be all to filled with Bluster. It was strange how the Dutch managed to battle the Japanese and the USARMY AF Yeah they finally got wiped out but they made a good accounting of what they had for resources. MAC and the Phillipines have far more aricraft and resources to defend with. Yet history FORGIVES MacArthur.. IMO this attitude also prevailed in Vietnam.. You added up a lot about how we got hit, suposedly by surprise, by the Chinese Making the Korean war a real "pit" of a fight. Something that could have been avoided or stopped quickly with some common sense. Then you can take the MacArthur story, going back further to Anacostia where he wiped out the WW1 Protesters.Uh, could you put the above into an intelligible form? When you do, I shall respond! Marc email@example.com FAX: +276/343-7315 Cha robh bàs fir gun ghràs fir!