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Wow you sound so Communistic!.. you want to
ReEducate ME!
I did did not say that the Marines were formed at
the same time the CIA was.
It was saved from extinction and from the arguments
by US Army and other
powerful Military brokers to get rid of
them.
It was at this time the Marines mission was DECIDED
on.
Speciffically not to duplicate the Armys
mission requirements.
Funny though .. This did not stop here as every US
Agency ended
up having its own military branch....and or
Clandestine organization.
From the Armys POV the Marines stole too much in
the way of outstanding
successes from the other military services.
IMO they were more professional
in the attack role and could fight effectively in
smaller units
attacking more tactically then a massive
army.
The Army's role was to maintain a sustained
presence, a far harder role logistically.
Present a massive force against other massive
positions.
Though they too have their own specialized
tactical units
BTW..You
stated..
>>3. The US was not engaged in a limited political war in Europe, and
Korea WAS the first limited war.
I gave you my
answers and then you contradict yourself with this statement
>Incidently, the US Marines fought in Korea in the 17th Century,
destroying Forts that fired on a US Navy Ship.
and you did not answer questions No6 matching your
statement No6
6) Which CONSERVATIVES and what kind of
Conservative were they, to support Civil Rights...?
D
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 2:09
PM
Subject: Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period
for list]
Re-read my post, AND your own, and trry again. You're way off
base.
Incidently, the US Marines fought in Korea in the 17th Century,
destroying Forts that fired on a US Navy Ship.
1775 is important, because
you had stated, in one of your spurious arguments, that the Corps was founded
at the same time the CIA was.
There is more , but I don't have time to
re-educate you. Try to follow along with the posts on this list and you may
come to some level of clarity. ;-)
Love Shack wrote:
Restate?
1) We won battles in Korea we did not win the
war..
The war was not about the Ideology of communism
but over control over a Land Mass...
and a Civial War about who was going to
rule
This peninsula was fought over all the way back
to the 1890's between Japan and Russia and later China
In fact even before that but not familiar
withe the who and what.
2) Marines founded in 1775..so
what!
3) We had several limited wars well before
Korea..such as .. Columbia over Panama, el Salvadore, Nicaragua,
Phillipines
4) Do not know what country you lived in .. but
the Colleges were filled with students, and homes were being built like
crazy.
AND massive city planning for roads,
interstates and transportation systems. The US was converting
over to a Commercial Economy.
In fact produced the largest increase
in middle class. Depicted in the early Hot Rods and Teen movies
of your era.
5) Actually the Defense Industry kills
Commercial growth as its Economic Impact is short term.
We are experiencing the same thing today
because our Leaders are not investing in America and
Infrastructure.
AND one of the prime reasons US Manufacturing
is dying and loosing our middle class.
We are not finding way of keeping jobs in the
US or reinvesting in our infrastructure.
When we invest in our country the individuals
personal costs to obtain and able to develop personal
investment.
Our Tax Laws benefit companies to develop off
shore tax havens instead of forcing those same companies in
invest
in OUR country. When that happens
then there will be a renewed interest...and maybe money in our
pockets.
6) Which CONSERVATIVES and what kind of
Conservative were they to support Civil Rights...?
Dan Fahey
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 2:18 PM
Subject:
Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period for list]
Let me re-state my former response in terms you may be able
to grasp. I did, and do, dispute your purported facts because they are in
error.
1. The fact is we defeated the enemy in Korea, restored the
situation ante-bellum, in spite of the politicians and bureaucrats being
manipulated at Panmunjon. We kicked ass after the initial stages, and were
on the threshold of decisive victory in 1951 when the Russians, to save
the Commies butts, clamored for peace talks.
2. The Marines were
founded in 1775.
3. The US was not engaged in a limited political war
in Europe, and Korea WAS the first limited war.
4. When I first
enlisted in the Service in 1949 the country was in a recession/depression,
the impact of millions of WW2 Vet's returning to a limited job market with
the downsizing of the defense industry, and the drain on the National
Economy because of the financial support for a recovering Europe .
5.
It was the Korean War and the re-vitalization of the defense industry,
along with the increase neccessary for logistical support that created the
economic growth.
6. It was the Conservatives, not the Liberals, that
supported legislation for Civil Rights.
I hope this time my points are
more clear, and might even register. :-)
Love Shack wrote:
Iam not
stupid..and not a Bigot...
AND you are right you cannot shed any
light on my stupidiy..
That you share with yourself....and you ad
hominum attacks..
Yet you do not disputed the facts I have presented. Too
bad...but that is you.
You are not being accountable or responsible
for your statements.
In fact your comments are childish.
I will stick with ed, swan, marc, cookie, sandy and others
information who have
taken an lot of their time to dig out details.
Despite my dickering with them
I listen and read what they have to
say, and have a lot of respect for thier opinion.
Go away Robert..until you are mature enough to converse with this
group.
Dan Fahey
Robert wrote:
I can shed no light on your
stupidity..........you do that well enough yourself. You aren't
finding out a damn thing about what really happened in Korea. It's
obvious you are ineducable.
Love Shack wrote:
Then you are a victim of your times and your assumptions
and
can see you are having a hard time not remaining Ignorant..
Today we are really finding out what really happened in Korea.
AND that we were not the almighty ass kickers that we were lead
to believe.
There was an earlier discussion on this NG about the Marines.
The discussion was about the them being cut out of the budget,
as not necessary in 1947... The same thing with the Coast Guard.
There was a big fight to invent the USAF....and discussions on
what to do with
NACA..to its eventual reformation as NASA.
Congress was not the modivating organization trying to cut down
the military.
But it was their fiscal responsibility to spend
the Tax Revenues where
it helped the country....then there were
the growing racial issues the conservatives
did not want to
surface..
Since you are not aware of the business climate.. there was a lot
of asset stripping going on.
Curtis Wright was the second
largest company in America at the time..
The stock holders tore
the company off selling off everything.
GM OTOH .. went into
commercial production.
CW had a lock on engines and could have
made a sucessful
commercial airplane builder..BUT no..it was
about the money.
AND the Beginining of a consolidation of the
Military Industrial Complex...
It was about money and power and one of the reasons why I feel
the intentions taken in Korea were betrayed by the internal
arguments of the time.
There was no more need to build 100000 aircraft or more
Battleships or Carriers.
We were selling our military surplus at
10 cents on the dollar.
Just about half of everything we built
was broken up in to scrap.
The country was trying to convert to a commercial economy.
Then again the CONSERVATIVEs Bankers would not lend money to
anyone without the Government stepping in and protecting the
banks.
I know all too well what happened in that era.
God help you if you were a Black and wanted to buy a Caddilac
1957 to 1953 was one of the best commercial growth periods in US
History.
It was the advent of the Rural Towms becoming todays
metropolis suburbs.
OK.. your turn
DF
Robert wrote:
Your lack of knowledge is
palpable.........and your assumptions ignorant. The Democrats were
in power, they were and are liberal and down size the Military
when ever they are in power, and the Marine Corps was founded in
1775. I won't address the rest of your diatribes and rant, because
I am certain you were not alive during the period being discussed,
and are only a victim of the current educational system. I lived
through those times, and fought in the Korean War, so I cannot
condem you for your ignorance, only pity you.
Robert
Love Shack wrote:
OH.. so this is really about
LIBERAL Democrats....HUH..NOT a battle among the Military
Elites..BUT LIBERAL Democrats...which were not a whole lot in
those days....Strom Thurmon was Democrat....
I guess the Political Limited War
in Europe did not count. The Decision to Eliminate the Marines was a battle
between the Military Elitesand where defense resources were
going.A long simmering battle among jealous and power seeking
people I believe
the DoD, USAF, Marines and CIA were all designed and
formedaround that period. THIS was not caused by LIBERAL
Democrats That is
your prejudice... DF
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Friday, December 20, 2002 6:16 PM
Subject:
Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period for list] You err
in your conclusions about Korea...........Korea was the first
Political Limited War, with the primary mission being to repel
the NKPR from the south. America was indeed unprepared,
because the Liberal Democrats had cut the Military to the
bone, even contemplating the ellimination of the Marine Corps.
But if you think the lack of preparedness infected all the US
Armed Forces, study the battles of the understrength Marine
Brigade that landed at Pusan in August of 1950. Thier
performance there, and the landing at Inchon assured that the
Marine Corps would remain the nations force in readiness.
Robert
Love Shack wrote:
I get the feeling the books on MacArthur are gentle on his decisions.
The Dutch during WW2 were in the Pacific area as well.
They seemed better prepared to fight the Japanese then the Americans.
The air combat records show this and that the Dutch fought with Distinction
Reading about their Air Combat leads me to believe that the Americans
ignored provacations by the Japanese.
We were caught on the Ground in the Phillipines.
There was no LOGICAL rotation of aircraft or preparation for an attack.
The one time we were in the air against the Japanese wiped us out
on one large air battle. That is just BAD planning for a Professional
Soldier.
Your opinion to Sandy seems to defend Mac's lack of Readiness.
IMO... he did the same thing in Korea...
YEah, he did some things right
BUT he does not have the combat instincts that were comparable to a Patton
or Rommel.
Again we were caught in Korea.....BLINDLY unprepared....
and held to a draw.
Diego earlier discloses that we got our BUTTs kicked in the Air War as well.
All the early books on Korea are crap. I am confused as to what really when
on.
IMO MacArthur made the same structural mistakes he did in WW2
that put us behind the 8-Ball....
Regarding my Vietnam comment .. we made the same structural logic
that got us caught in that war as well.
This is what I am getting out of the new Information on WW2 and Korea.
I side with those that write about what happened that fits the RESULTS.
Thereby adding up what the original Intentions were.
What you REALLY intended is your RESULTS
DF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc James Small" <msmall@infi.net>
To: <KOREAN-WAR-L@raven.cc.ku.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: MacArthur [Was: Slow period for list]
At 11:38 AM 12/20/02 -0500, Love Shack wrote:
IMHO it sounds like MAC Ghost is with us AGAIN... Sandy : be all
to filled with Bluster. It was strange how the Dutch managed to battle the
Japanese and the USARMY AF Yeah they finally got wiped out but they made
a good accounting of what they had for resources. MAC and the Phillipines
have far more aricraft and resources to defend with. Yet history
FORGIVES MacArthur.. IMO this attitude also prevailed in Vietnam.. You
added up a lot about how we got hit, suposedly by surprise, by the Chinese
Making the Korean war a real "pit" of a fight. Something that could have
been avoided or stopped quickly with some common sense. Then you can
take the MacArthur story, going back further to Anacostia where he wiped
out the WW1 Protesters.
Uh, could you put the above into an intelligible form? When you do, I
shall respond!
Marc
msmall@infi.net FAX: +276/343-7315
Cha robh bąs fir gun ghrąs fir!
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