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Re: revising air war kill tallies



Dear Cookie and all,
 
I have followed this thread with some interest and must state again that almost every AF aerial claims were overstated. Be that as it may, it must also be stated that comparing a single loss to a claim is an almost impossibility for any war. But there are some very noted examples of individual single claims that can be verified. It must also be stated, that for the most part, that official loss records cannot be absolutely be used as final proof, as even the German loss records of WW-II have glaring holes in them for different periods of the war.
 
But the Korean question still boils down to the fact that the US was not committed to a victory on the ground or in the air, but rather a return to the status quo. As such, and the same was wanted in Moscow as well so as to tie up American interests away from Europe, Korea was only ever used by the US and Moscow as a bleeding ground for the other side. And for that purpose alone, to draw any conclusions about who won or lost would have to then be viewed about how the US allowed itself to react in and toward Taiwan, Vietnam and in NATO.
 
Certain things can be ascertained about the aerial victories in Korea. NATO, as even today, is only interested in short term European interests. Korea is still a hot bed of claims and threats from the North, and there is still no clear road to peace.
 
It can also be stated that the Korean conflict did cause a significant drain on Russian aerial production capabilities. The Lagg-15 and MiG-9s were relegated to almost complete obscurity for battlefield use, and also ate up precious production line capabilities. And the MiGs were clearly only a match for the F-86s if backed-up by a clearly superior pilot, irrespective of how the Chinese or NK want to interpret history. China was clearly blunted in its ambitions to drive the US from Korea and from Taiwan, and a serious dent was put into Russia's production capability to fight a lasting war of attrition against the US, on the ground or in the air.
 
If nothing else was learned in Moscow, it was that they did not have enough WW-II veterans to match the US in a protracted aerial war, and that they also knew that any future war was not going to be like anything that they had experienced in WW-II against the Germans. Contrary to many individuals thoughts out there, the Germans could never have won the was against Russia during WW-II, their strategic capability in steel and oil production was just never there. But the US was something else for the Russians to think about.
 
Moscow could interpret aerial losses and claims from both sides just as well as Washington. One thing was clear to Uncle Joe, he just could not afford to continue losing MiGs as fast as the US could shoot them down. And if the Chinese could not interpret aerial losses equally well, why did not they send any of their numerous MiG-9s down to Vietnam or their southern airfields to threaten that area in 1954? To do so would have brought a response from the USN navy carriers that they knew were there just in case of such an eventuality.
 
I think that it is a very rewarding venture to try and establish individual loss/claims on both sides of any conflict, but to get too close to such an issue can be very much like trying to establish which British archer killed such and such French nobleman at Augencourt. The French lost to tactics and to technical superiority of the English long-bow to French armor. So too in Korea, American tactics and material production capabilities just outspent the Moscow/Beijing/Pyongyang will for a proletariat victory in the air or on the ground. The jungles on SE-Asia were too much of a match for anything that America could, or would be willing, to commit.
 
Harold Stockton
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: revising air war kill tallies

In a message dated 11/14/2003 10:16:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, unclgene@pacbell.net writes:
There is no prize on either side for making the enemy assessment of effectiveness any easier.
 
Inspire 28
 
That's true, but in many other cases the Russians are starting to be brutally honest about how things really were. A recent study just proved that Prokhorovka -- one of the legendary battles of WWII and according to the Soviets the biggest single tank battle in history -- was not the crushing defeat on the Germans the Soviets claimed. They found out they lost over 700 tanks out of about 750 involved, whereas the Germans only lost 400 out of 600. But at the end of the day, the Germans ran out of fuel and ammo, which forced a withdrawal.
 
The jury is still out on Korea.
 
Cookie Sewell
AMPS