Re: General Gabriel

[Joe Brennan <jbren1@optonline.net>]

I wonder can you be more specific what if any published sources say Gabriel
was shot down? As you and Cookie both mentioned it's seems pretty clear
Gabriel didn't become a casualty in air combat, he obviously wasn't killed
(passed away this year actually) and it seems implausible his biographies
would not mention him having been a POW. In some cases F-86 losses are
recorded and the pilot's names not given, the Korwald researchers didn't
find them, because they are just not there in the records in a few cases if
the pilot was picked up. However in that case how would the other side know
who it was? Anyway if any other circumstances of the claim were known it
would be easier to nail down. Very interesting though.

I'd mention a possibly similar case, in terms of things written that use
parts of US accounts but in an unbalanced way. Feb 21 1953 Capt. Vincent
Stacy shared credit for a MiG. In Seidov's book he relates how one MiG lost
that day was piloted by a Maj Babich; another pilot of his squadron in the
913 Fighter Regiment, the ace Semen Fedorets, claimed to have downed the
F-86 on Babich's tail. Seidov reasonably speculates that *if* an F-86 was
shot down if was probably from Stacy's flight of the 335th FIS. But actually
there were no F-86 combat losses that day. It's therefore a routine event in
air combat history: a claim is made but overoptimistically.

However now one can read accounts on the web see link:
http://www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html
saying Stacy himself *was* shot down by Fedorets, apparently expanding on
Seidov's suggestion. But it seems very doubtful, besides no recorded losses
that day a first hand account of another pilots quoted in a published source
happens to mention Stacy as his flight leader in March. And again if Stacy
was downed and picked up, how would the writer know that when it doesn't
appear in US nor presumably Russian records? (if it did presumably Seidov
would have said so) So the informed reader is left to conclude such accounts
are written to make a better story about the ace (Fedorets in this case)
being celebrated with less emphasis on accuracy.

That particular one drew attention when the webmaster the site of one of
Stacy's later (F-102) squadrons quoted the story. I inquired where the info
had come from thinking it might be first hand corroboration of the shootdown
though expressing my doubts. But the webmaster admitted he'd gotten it "from
a website", and when he inquired among members of the sdn association he
found a strong negative response about the truth of the story from a guy
who'd flown with Stacy in Korea. But meantime confusion is sown.

Joe


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jackchwang@comcast.net>
To: <KOREAN-WAR-L@listproc.cc.ku.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 8:27 PM
Subject: General Gabriel


> Folks,
>
> I am trying to find out whether General Charles A. Gabriel,
> ex-Chief of Staff, US Air Force, had ever been shot down during
> the Korean War.  He was a F-86 fighter pilot with 51th Fighter
> Wing from December 1951 through December 1952.  He was credited
> with two MiG kills.  There was no record showing his being shot
> down during the period.  However, Chinese records/articles/rumors
> always have him admitting been shot down by the renown Wang Hai
> Squadraon.  Any further information would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jack Hwang
>