Happy New Years all...
When the USA decided on the Mustang.
I am having a Discussion with the P47 Revisionsists.
Availablility, still being produced in Australia, well at least until
1949.
More pilots trained on the Mustang.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:10
PM
Subject: Re: Shooting Star
When I said 4-5 F-80 air combat losses in the period Nov 1 1950-May 20
1951 (actually all victories and losses occurred by mid March, the time
when the F-86 permanently took over the air-air role from the F-80 after the
Sabres re-occupied Suwon/Kimpo having been forced from them by
the Chinese ground offensive in Jan). That consisted of:
Dec 4 1950: 8th FBS F-80 49-478 is damaged, not repaired according to its
Aircraft Record Card (this is erroneously listed 12/5 in Korwald, damaged).
This is the first jet fighter the MiG's could reasonably claim, the first jet
they really downed was earlier the same day, an RB-45.
Dec 12 1950: couldn't be ruled out this loss attributed to AAA was
really to MiG's, but less than 50-50. As I mentioned F-80's of the same unit
did engage MiG's, which made claims, on the same mission, but the reports
state AAA for this loss without equivocation.
Dec 27: as Cookie listed
Jan 21:8 FBS F-80 apparently downed by MiG.
Mar 17: 36 FBS F-80 collided with MiG, both lost.
So 3-5, uncertain 12/12, matter of definition 12/4. v. 6-7 MiG's actually
downed (only 2 officially credited).
The Nov 11 1950 F-80 loss was almost certainly not to MiG's IMO. This was
from Utah Baker flight of the 8 FBS 49 FBG, 1140-1350 (Seoul time). The no 3
man (of 3) of flight was observed to crash 15 mi NW of base on
return after bombing buildings vicinity of Kwaksan (~40mi SE Antung). No
MiG's are mentioned in the mission report.
MiG's were encountered this day were by two flights of the 51st FIW
(which flew F-80's at this time), one at 1330 the other at
1525 both over Sinuiju (south bank of Yalu). The Soviets claimed 2
F-80's this day at 1424 Beijing time (1524 Seoul) near Antung (north bank of
Yalu). Though the MiG's greatly overestimated the number of their
opponents,otherwise it seems to be the same combat. No F-80's were hit.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 9:57
PM
Subject: Re: Shooting Star
I concur with Joe, sorting out ACTUAL losses is more like herding cats
than simple arithmetic.
Case in point: F-80 losses. I have a total of 24 listed right now in
KWAAKE (my new database tool -- Korean War Air-to-Air Kill Evaluation) but
as Joe noted many of the problem indicators come from KORWALD.
Normally KORWALD will give a reason for the lost but in some cases it
either says "unknown," "operational loss" or "shot down" with no
amplification. This can cause misery and an overestimate of how effective
the other side really was.
When the numbers are run against claims versus losses, I can get the
number down to 12:
03 Jul 50 (!), 19 Jul 50, 11 Nov 50, 27 Dec 50, 6 Jun 51, 24 Jun 51, 31
Aug 51, 9 Sep 51, 11 Sep 51, 27 Nov 51, 1 Dec 51, 30 Apr 52. The first one
is a claim and a loss, but whether it is a second Yak kill is speculative.
Most of the rest are pretty firm, as they are taken on days when units were
in combat with each other.
My FEAF loss data base sits at around 3,050 aircraft, but of that
number about 1,100 were non-combat (F4Us that stalled on launch, F-51Ds that
undershot the runway, aerial fires on B-29s not over a combat zone,
flameouts, etc.) Of the other 1,850 about 80-90% of THOSE losses were due to
combat or AAA and the rest to air-to-air.
As noted, right now KWAAKE shows 240 air-to-air losses, but as I scrub
it many of them are on days with no air combat or claimants. Joe's guess of
175 is a pretty good one.
The "78" Sabre losses broke down as 7 A models, 58 E models and 13 F
models. But from the "Mig Alley" book the Korean War cost the USAF
just over 200 F-86s lost in combat, to ground fire and in accidents.
(They list over 700 Sabres that rotated through Korea as well.)
Cookie Sewell
AMPS