----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 2:19
PM
Subject: Re: Korea War List of Aces
Thanks Joe...
Is there as much contoversy over our Top
Aces?
Did we regulate and manage better
information?
Were our Gun Cameras dependable?
How about the C/R/NK..did they record much
action?
I remember as a child seeing US Air Combat movies
on Korea
shooting down Migs and boasting the 14:1
ratio.
I remember a British movie where a bunch of
Spitfires attacked a formation over England
shooting down a few planes. They came back
rejoicing stating they shot down 10 or so planes.
Then the investigating officer came over, played
back the combat film.
The excited pilots were made grim seeing
that they shot at their own countrymen
killing one of the valued pilots. They story went
on.
How much of this film has been preserved?
What percentage do you think has been
researched?
Dan
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 1:46
PM
Subject: Re: Korea War List of
Aces
I think as Cookie said verification of ace
scores in Korea is not doable in general. So I'd fall back to, the US
aces probably shot down around 70-75% as many planes as credited with on
average (remembering some of their "probable" and "damaged" represented MiG
losses though less then 70% of their "confirmed destroyed" might be
correct), the Communist aces around 10-15% of what they were credited with,
because that was the accuracy rate of their AF's as a whole.
As mentioned the US scores except early on are
hard to verify because day by day Chinese and NK losses aren't known.
However even Russia scores are difficult to nail down for a different
statistical reason. Overall the Communist AF's heavily overclaimed. However
the claims are not random but correlate with real engagements very closely,
and with real losses to a degree. So when a lot of claims were made often
one or some US planes were actually downed. The problem is how to apportion
the losses among the more usually much more numerous claims for the
same combat. One method seems to be if a famous ace claimed, credit him
first, but I think that's false accuracy.
An example, July 21 1951.
Pepelyaev's unit claimed 7 F-94's; 1 to
him generally said. They actually engaged USMC F9F's. One F9F was lost, not
more, unless there's clever and extensive fraud in USMC records up to and
including "Top Secret" classification. I don't believe there is. Why should
even the one be credited to Pep rather than anyone else who claimed? He had
gun camera film but it just shows an F9F (not an F-94) breaking hard left in
published frames of the film. Unknowable,but treating as "Pepelyaev's victory" is misleading,
IMO. And more so if one article says "Pepelyaev claimed an F-94 July 21
[US records indeed show at least 1 F9F was lost]" and then another article
about Boris Abakumov says "Abakumov claimed x F-94's July 21 [US records
indeed show at least 1 F9F lost]".
Because that phenomenon recurs for the Russian
aces, at best a wide range is possible IMO for their scores in general. One
can theorize that as aces they were more accurate than lower scoring pilots
and so should get priority for credit for the actual US losses. Or one
could theorize the opposite: they had high scores partly because they were
bigger overclaimers.
One other point that list seems to be a multi
transliteration, does a number on the Chinese and Korean names. The more
common spelling of first three Chinese are Chao Bao-Tun, Wang Hai, and
Li Han. Other lists have several others of similar scores, somewhat academic
IMO.
On Korean side an early Yak pilot Kim Gi-Ok is
usually listed higher than the other two guys. The first on this list
is probably Kang Jung-Duk, I've never seen a correct name for the second.
"Di San" is not a Korean given name AFAIK. Kim Gi-Ok's actual victories
are quoted as high as 17 but couldn't have been more than a handful
really.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004
5:02 PM
Subject: Korea War List of Aces
I dug these
up..http://www.tgplanes.com/pilots.asp
Nicolai V.
Sutyagin
22
Korea
USSR
Yevgeny G.
Pepelyaev
19(23?)
Korea
USSR
Alexandr P.
Smortzkow
15
Korea USSR
L. K.
Schukin
15
Korea USSR
D. P.
Oskin
14(11?)
Korea USSR
M. S.
Ponomaryov
14(11?)
Korea USSR
S. M.
Kramarenko
13
Korea
USSR
Sutzkow
12
Korea USSR
N. K.
Sheberotov
12
Korea USSR
S. A.
Bakhayev
11
Korea USSR
N. G.
Dokashenko
11
Korea USSR
G. U.
Ohay
17(6 WW2)
Korea
USSR
Pomaz
11
Korea USSR
D. A.
Samoylov
10
Korea USSR
M. S.
Milaushkin
10
Korea USSR
G. I.
Pulov
10(8?)
Korea
USSR
Mikhail I.
Mihin
9
Korea USSR
S. P.
Subbotin
9
Korea USSR
H. V.
Zabelin
9
Korea USSR
G. I.
Ges
8(9?)
Korea USSR
S. A.
Fedorets
7(8?)
Korea USSR
N. N.
Babonin
7
Korea USSR
I. M.
Zaplavnev
7
Korea USSR
L. M.
Ivanov
7
Korea USSR
A. S.
Boitsov
6
Korea USSR
B. V.
Bokatz
6
Korea USSR
V. M.
Hvostontsev
6
Korea
USSR
Nikolai
Ivanov
6
Korea USSR
A. P.
Nikolayev
6
Korea USSR
P. F.
Nikulin
6
Korea USSR
F. A.
Shebanov
6
Korea USSR
S. F.
Vesshnyakov
6
Korea USSR
N. M.
Zameskin
6
Korea USSR
B. S.
Abakumov
5
Korea USSR
A. T.
Bashman
5
Korea USSR
V. I.
Belousov
5
Korea USSR
G. N.
Berelidze
5
Korea USSR
G. I.
Bogdanov
5
Korea USSR
N. I.
Gerasimenko
5
Korea USSR
S. D.
Danilov
5
Korea USSR
G. F.
Dmitryuk
5
Korea
USSR
Anatoli M.
Karelin
5
Korea USSR
N. L.
Korniyenko
5
Korea USSR
A. M.
Kochegarov
5
Korea USSR
V. L.
Lepikov
5
Korea USSR
S. I.
Naumenko
5
Korea USSR
B. A.
Obraztsov
5
Korea
USSR
Olenitsa
5
Korea
USSR
Prudnikov
5
Korea USSR
B. N.
Siskov
5
Korea USSR
N. K.
Shelamanov
5
Korea USSR
N. I.
Shkodin
5(3?)
Korea
USSR
Joseph
McConnell
16
Korea USA
James
Jabara
16.5(1.5 WWII) Korea
USA
Manuel J.
Fernandez
14.5
Korea USA
George
Davis
Jr.
21(7 WWII)
Korea USA
Royal
N.
Baker
16.5(3.5 WWII) Korea
USA
Fredrick
Blesse
10
Korea USA
Harold
E.
Fischer
10
Korea USA
Vermont
Garrison
17.33(7.33 WWII) Korea
USA
James
Johnson
10(1 WWII)
Korea USA
Lonnie
R.
Moore
10
Korea USA
Ralph
S. Parr
Jr.
10
Korea USA
Cecil
G.
Foster
9
Korea USA
James
F.
Low
9
Korea USA
James
P.
Hagerstrom
14.5(6 WWII)
Korea
USA
Robinson
Risner
8
Korea USA
George
I.
Ruddell
8
Korea
USA
Clifford D.
Jolley
7
Korea USA
Francis
Gabreski
34.5(28 WWII)
Korea USA
Donald
E.
Adams
6.5
Korea USA
Geroge
L.
Jones
6.5
Korea USA
Winton
W.
Marshall
6.5
Korea USA
John F.
Bolt
Jr.
12(6 WWII)
Korea USA
James
H.
Kasler
6
Korea USA
Edwin
L.
Heller
9(3.5 WWII)
Korea USA
William
T.
Whisner
21(15.5 WWII)
Korea USA
Robert
P.
Baldwin
5
Korea USA
Richard
S.
Becker
5
Korea USA
Stephen
L.
Bettinger
5
Korea USA
John F.
Bolt
12(5 WWII)
Korea USA
Guy P.
Bordelon
5
Korea USA
Clyde
A.
Curtin
5
Korea USA
Ralph
D.
Gibson
5
Korea USA
Iven C.
Kinchloe
5(10?)
Korea USA
Robert
T.
Latshaw
5
Korea USA
Robert
H.
Moore
5
Korea USA
Dolphin
D. Overton
III
5
Korea USA
William
H.
Wescott
5
Korea USA
Guy
Bordelon
5
Korea
USA
Harrison R.
Thyng
10(5 WWII)
Korea USA
Philip
E.
Colman
9(5 WWII)
Korea USA
Walker
M.
Mahurin
23.5(20 WWII)
Korea USA
Van E.
Chandler
8(5 WWII)
Korea USA
John C.
Meyer
26(24 WWII)
Korea USA
John W.
Andre
5(4 WWII)
Korea USA
John W.
Mitchell
11(7 WWII)
Korea USA
Glenn
T.
Eagleston
2(18.5 WWII)
Korea USA
Lowell
K.
Brueland
12.5(10.5 WWII) Korea
USA
Philip Cunliffe De
Long
11.17(9.17 WWII) Korea USA
William J.
Hovde
10.5(9.5 WWII) Korea
USA
John J.
Hockery
7(6 WWII)
Korea USA
Robert
Wade
8(7.5 WWII)
Korea
USA
Benjamin H. Emmert
Jr.
6(5 WWII)
Korea USA
William
E.
Lamb
6(5 WWII)
Korea USA
James
W.
Little
6(5 WWII)
Korea USA
Herman
W.
Visscher
6(5 WWII)
Korea USA
Dewey
F.
Durnford
6.83(6.33 WWII) Korea
USA
John
MacKay
12.2(11.2 WWII) Korea
Canada
J.
Lindsay
9(7 WWII)
Korea
Canada
Chszao
Bao-tun
9
Korea China
Van
Hai
9
Korea China
Lee
Khan
8
Korea China
Lu
Min
8
Korea China
Fan
Vanchszou
8
Korea China
Sun
Shanku
6
Korea
China
Kam Den
Dek
8
Korea North
Korea
Kim Di
San
6
Korea North
Korea